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Oct 18
2009

Episode 17 - The Rent.com Debacle

Posted by Mark Juleen in Property Management SoftwareApartment SearchApartment MarketingApartment LeasingApartment Community Website

Mark Juleen


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This is kind of a long video, but I have to get this off my chest. I'm frustrated, and I have a feeling many of you out there could be paying for Rent.com bills that are not justified. The Rent.com model is flawed and needs to be fixed.

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as seen at Tidbits from The Apartment Nerd

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written by Stephanie Gonzalez, October 19, 2009
Hi Mark,

Spot ON! I have been dealing with this at my properties all year. They have the property managers running around getting back up to justify their reason for questioning the invoice and in the meantime, they send duplicate invoices to the corporate office hoping for payment without red flags!! I too have had a property suspended for the same reason.

Now, what do we do?
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written by todd katler, October 19, 2009
Hey Mark. I know I have these discussions every week with people just like you. The Rent.com model does have its challenges and disputes like these are unfortunately unavoidable.

I know we do a lot of analysis for our clients to help them determine the true value of each of their ad sources. I guess my questions are how accurate to you think property guest cards are in general? What percentage of the time do you think the source recorded on the guest card may be wrong?

-Todd

Todd Katler
Level One
toddk@levelone.com
866-440-8070
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written by Eric Brown, October 19, 2009
Hey Mark,
Ranting aside, Todd has an excellent point. (Didn't we just have a discussion about Gust Cards!)
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written by Mark Juleen, October 19, 2009
@Stephanie, I had someone suggest I come up with some alternatives and bill Rent.com for my consulting time. So I'll keep you posted.

@Todd, You make a good point, and for that reason I argue that their model is flawed. There needs to be specific proof that a customer was influenced by Rent.com. Whether that's a coupon with a tracking code, or a text message it needs to be much more firm than only relying on the customer to tell a leasing consultant Rent.com was their source.

Of course people go to Rent.com and do research, but should a property pay a bill if Rent.com was not the main influence for them to choose the community? I say no. As your data and many others will show, renters are going to do their searches in multiple places. We pay a flat rate to the majority of those other services and there is no contesting of payments. Their $100 payout is what influences renters to go to Rent.com (sometimes even after the 1st visit). It's not because of the content, but because of the $100.

If Rent.com does not do a good enough job explaining to customers they need to mention Rent.com when they visit, how is that the community's or management company's problem? Sending reminders to customers to claim their $100, sending multiple bills to different locations, and denying write-offs does not add to a positive experience for management.

There is a better way for Rent.com to track their service. It may not be as profitable as it is today, but the frustrations of management companies with the current model may end up making them less money in the long run. It needs to be changed.

@Eric, this is obviously another reason why guest cards can be important. I know you don't use Rent.com for your company, but tracking sources can be a critical piece to spending marketing dollars. Whether you believe it is important or not may not be relevant to larger companies that use more sources beyond Craigslist to market their apartments. The guest card is a piece to the puzzle for most management companies whether you like it or not. I don't see it changing. How it is used may change and evolve, but I don't believe they will go away in the near future.
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written by todd katler, October 19, 2009
Mark, I think if Rent.com is showing you digital proof that the renter found your community prior to the date they first visited the property, absence conflicting documentation (like a prior lead form another ILS, etc.), the Rent.com data is probably right. Now if Rent.com cannot show those “foot prints in the snow”, that’s another story.

Maybe look at it this way – take your management reports from all of the ILS’s and compute how many unique leads you are getting. This means you should multiply the number of phone calls by .7 and the number of emails by .95 (this gets rid of the non-prospect calls).

Divide those lead counts into the total amount you are spending (or would spend if you did not dispute the Rent.com leases in question) and note the cost-per-lead. Rank the ILS’s and see how it comes out. If Rent.com is under $20, they may be a great deal for you despite the flaws in the model or at least that will tell you if there is a bigger problem to look at.

-Todd

P.S. – All this frustration – kind of makes you want to find the executive team that started Rent.com and smack them around, huh?
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written by Tamela Coval, October 19, 2009
Mark, outside of apartment-dwelling pooch-owners-with-optimal-pooping-canines, controlling Lead Spam-a-lot AND the tracking those leads is one of THE toughest tasks to tackle for owner/managers.

In validating our leads, we listen to call after call after call from apartment seekers to leasing staff and there is virtually no brand recognition amongst consumers. Zippo, nada, nary a bit.

The most common answer to "How did you hear about us" is...brace yourselves for the earth-shattering response..."On the internet."

Additional probing leads to no further insight, so the leasing agent/call center is left to make an assumption and move on to the next question on the guest card. Yikes. A large percentage of the time, the "How did you hear about us" question never comes up. Double yikes.

The first step is always identifying the problem. And paying for pooper-scoopers as move-in gifts.

Tamela


Tamela Coval
RentWiki
tamela@rentwiki.com
770-458-2520
smilies/grin.gif
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written by justin dunckel, October 19, 2009
Mark-

Well said. You call it flawed, I call it brain damage. But, we speak the same language and it's called frustration.

A few things we do to mitigate- require every Rent.com invoice be accompanied by 1) a signed lease (to verify correct fee vs. lease term) and 2) a copy of the guest card (to verify referral source). Further, we set-up a custom report in our PM software that triggers us quarterly to review invoices paid vs. people who actually fulfilled their lease term (i.e. didn't skip after two months) pursuant to Rent.com's "Terms & Conditions." At least we can recover some money should we not get the full value of the referral "deal."

That being said, I also agree with Todd's point that we (as an industry) do a pretty lousy job of sourcing on guest cards. Much like objections, marketing sources seem to have this unique ability to take on the flavor of the Salesperson filling out the guest card.

So in the end, we should probably just follow Eric's advice- drop the traditional/paid marketing approach and forget about that nonsense on the guest card anyway!
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written by Tara Smiley, October 19, 2009
From a very base standpoint... If I, as a consumer, know that I will receive a monetary bump if I mention a phrase at a vendor, then I do it. If the majority of people Rent.com is claiming to bill for cite "the internet" then obviously Rent.com is not doing a sufficient job of brand recognition nor are they creating enough of an urgency to mention their specific site. Their problem, not ours. If on a recorded prospect call, the prospect fails to mention Rent.com specifically the Rent.com has failed. The end.
By the way, continue with the visual posts. pleasesmilies/grin.gif
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written by Mark Juleen, October 19, 2009
Thanks for contributing everyone. It should be interesting to see if we get some more thoughts tomorrow as well.

@Todd I'm not sure if it's worth the frustration any longer. I've done the math and the $389/lease is actually very fair. I'm not contending that cost, rather I am contesting the ethics and process behind invoicing for these leases. It seems way to inconsistent.

@Tamela You make an excellent point and help support why this model is flawed. Renters typically don't know where they found us. They were online, they don't know exactly where most of the time, and they most likely visited numerous sites that helped to influence a decision. I highly doubt 1 site was the end all for making a decision to call. All these variables just create even more frustration when it comes to getting billed for Rent.com leases and justifying them.

@Justin I agree. The end goal is to get away from the reliance on an ILS model for leads. We're getting there ... I hope.

@Tara You've summed up exactly what I'd like this post to really point out. It's not property management's fault the customer didn't say Rent.com. If there is a $100 carrot out there for renters, then Rent.com is doing a poor job ensuring those renters mention their website. Very well said, thank you!
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written by Mark Juleen, October 19, 2009
For the record everyone, I have a phone call with Chris Vargas of Rent.com this Thursday to further discuss. I never have intended to just complain and let this be. Many of you know I'm an advocate for kaizen/constant improvement. This model needs to be improved, in my opinion, and I hope to help influence some change. I look forward to sharing the outcome of our conversation.
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written by Eric Brown, October 19, 2009
Hey Mark, I have to weigh in here, albeit my question has much more to do with the comments than the post.

Obviously, I am NOT an ILS Buyer, but you folks are, which is fine, what ever you feel works,works, and I certainly don't disagree with an integrated approach, assuming you have a Fat Rat Marketing Budget, which you must if you use all of the ILS Services (not saying you do, but that is my question)

Based on Tamela's comment, Just how do you choose which ILS to hop in bed with, Are certain ones better in certain areas, certain product types, how do you choose?

Second, What business are the ILS's in exactly, in your opinion,
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written by Mark Juleen, October 19, 2009
Eric, as with many things, different markets dictate what sources to use. For example, Apartment Finder is not in the Indianapolis market and no one uses their website as a resource here. Rentwiki is very new to our market and we are working with them to help build a presence as I believe in their model.

The other sites are all unique as well. Apartments.com is a part of the Indianapolis Star newspaper so there are good marketing dollars driving traffic to their site here locally. For Rent magazine and the Apartment Guide are also here in the Indy market. For Rent will allow me to do online only listings while I would have to have a print listing in Apartment Guide in order to be on their ILS.

The others that fall in are the national ILSs like Rent.com, Move.com, and MyNewPlace.com. These are not associated with anything printed (that I know of). There are some smaller players, but the ones I have listed above would be considered the major ILSs from what I've seen. Anyone can please add more if I've missed them, and please no offense to anyone I may have omitted.

So, how do I determine which ones to be in? It takes constant measurement and tracking of phone calls mainly. We do use guest card data as a part of our equation as well. Is it ever perfect? No way. Is it pretty close? I think so. Even if I throw in variables of 25% up or down on leads they shake out about the same. I use all this data to measure a cost per lease. There are arguments for cost per lead, but I can argue all day that leads don't matter unless the person leases. I'd rather have 3 quality/qualified prospects and lease to 2 then have 20 and lease to 2.

So after all that tracking mumbo-jumbo it does also involve some instincts beyond the data. For example, I like apartments.com because they are supported by the local newspaper and their URL always comes up first in online Google searches. I know you understand the power of Google so that one probably makes sense to you as well.

The print guides make a fairly good argument for how their books drive traffic to their websites, but I continue to make the argument that the cost per lease after paying for the print listing is difficult to justify.

When it's all said and done, I'm a fan of your model. I'd love to not pay for ILS listings. In smaller markets like Royal Oak there doesn't seem to be as much Google competition for apartment keywords, so it may be more feasible. Maybe that is your metro area in general. I guess I go back to my point that different markets dictate different choices. So what do people choose? Some do them all. Some select a few. Some monitor and track their leads and determine is is best. For me it's a work in progress. With each listing on these sites I have an opportunity to drive a customer to my company website. If I can accomplish that then I look at it as a successful expenditure as well.

OK, this is becoming a long winded response, but I don't really have one answer for you and I don't think there is one answer for everyone. As for what business the ILSs are in? Simply put, I believe they are hyper-targeted enhanced classified listings for the most part. As these classifieds have evolved from the guide books into an ILS new players have entered the game, and they are all a bit torn on what they should become or should be. Maybe you have a different take on what an ILS is, and I'd be interested to here your thoughts as well.

As a renter, searching an apartment online is a pain in the butt. Just as this post has pointed out, it's almost impossible to pinpoint what helped to really influence someone to call or visit. We're all trying to capture some eyeballs, and a hyper-targeted approach makes sense. I don't think anyone can argue that a prospect visiting an ILS is going there with the intention to not search for an apartment. The more opportunities a property has to capture those eyeballs the better, but it has to be justified by using a budgeted cost per lease in my mind. I have many other thoughts on ILSs, but I'll just let it be for now. See "Absurd Marketing Ideas" in the discussion are for some other thoughts. http://www.multifamilyinsiders...29&id=1373
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written by Tim Grace, October 19, 2009
@Mark This is difficult situation, to be sure. Attribution in these matters is never easy. Visiting a site alone is certainly not indicative of intent. Sending an email from that site or placing a phone call gets you closer, but as Todd points out, neither one of those actions offers clarity to your key question: who gets the credit?

Perhaps the larger question here is whether or not such attribution is really something you, and your peers, feel is necessary to justify ad spend. If so, then we as an industry need to innovate down that path. If not, then how is that ad spend truly judged? Much like the debate in the display ad biz (should performance of display ad buys be judged on metrics beyond CTR and on impact to brand metrics, post-impression behavior, etc.), we'd need to evolve to a place in which lower funnel actions (contacting properties directly via phone/email) are not the only currency in evaluating ad spend. During my days buying advertising, both online and off (not in the multifamily space), our campaigns were targeted at both sorts of objectives uniquely, with messaging and media channels selected to best serve those goals. So, one question to ask is should the "ILS" (yep, the quotes mean I hate this term) ad spend be exclusively an acquisition play, or can the model evolve to deliver against other goals you have as a marketer. These are definitely questions I ask myself in thinking about our business.

@Eric Your question was not directed at me, but I'll venture an answer anyway. The "ILS" (yep, still hating the term) is two things: an advertising medium and a consumer destination for rental search content. Both business are dependent on each other, which often leads to tension in optimizing performance for each business. The ad medium business serves consumers by consolidating what is clearly a fragmented market into a rental search experience that gives users a single site solution (a couple site solution, as it generally becomes). The model simultaneously gives users a robust marketplace of available rentals and grants advertisers access to a large, yet highly targeted, prospect tool.

What I applaud about Urbane's approach is that you've created a brand, alongside a solid traffic acquisition strategy, that stimulates demand for your specific flavor of apt community. To meet your needs, paid advertising simply isn't required. But for every Mint.com or early days Starbucks who don't advertise, there are countless healthy brands that value advertising for the reach and scale it provides. I personally see both sides, in many ways because we build our consumer brand using many of the same tactics you employ at Urbane...

TG
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written by Eric Brown, October 20, 2009
@Mark, Thanks for sparking a discussion here. It is good to here you have a phone call scheduled with hopefully an amicable resolve.

Too, thanks for allowing the conversation to drift off topic a bit also. Pretty informative,

@Tim, Thank you for stepping up with an answer, much appreciated. One question leads to another though, Why don't the ILS's allow rich links back to the clients (apartment community) web site.

Does it really work better keeping the prospect "Gated In" to your site or is that scarcity mentally? If the 'Client" got more web traffic, and the ILS drove that source, aren't you are adding value for the client by sharing and spreading some Google Juice? In our world, more web traffic IS a direct correlation to more rentals
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written by Karen Long, October 20, 2009
My background contains years in the apartment locator business and ILS experience so I realize how frustrating it can be for the vendor and for the community to identify where the marketing is working. Guest cards aren't always accurate, or they may be vague. At some point in a dispute, the two business partners need to discuss the situation. That's where it tends to break down with the large ILSs (for your info I'm currently part of ApartmentSearch by CORT & we have an internet listing service as part of our business).
It's the responsibility of the ILS to make sure that the customer sources it properly. When that doesn't happen, the ILS should walk away. Notify the customer that he didn't source properly and most of the time, that's the end of it. If the rental customer is upset because he feels he DID source the ILS (possible error on the guest card issue), then that can be discussed between the renter and the management team. If the community's decision is changed, then the ILS should be notified. It's all about a respectful, fair partnership.
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written by Karen Long, October 20, 2009
I just wanted to also mention that ILSs serve a real purpose. This generation loves the internet and expects to be able to access, review and select it's next home on-line. To be in the running for this customer you need to be where they are looking and that's the internet. Take advantage of ILSs, build your own brand...it's all necessary to be competitive.
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written by Eric Brown, October 20, 2009
Hey Karen, Thanks for joining into this conversation. Mark has set off a firestorm here. Just curious about a piece of your last comment, in your opinion, how does an ILS help an apartment community build a brand?
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written by Tamela Coval, October 20, 2009
Guys...sounds like an "Aggravation-inspired Aggregation" tool is the solution.

If you want a couple of chuckles and maybe some points to ponder, read on. If you choose to read further, please indulge my run-on-sentences - after all, you guys know I'm irreverent and wacky.

Read aloud, the desired tone of my 2 cents puts you in the high-heeled shoes of a multi-tasking-running-the-hiney-off-with-hair-on-fire-8-reports-to-fill-out-for-corporate-office-and-29-make-readys-to-walk-it's-3-in-the-afternoon-and-my-Whataburger-has-frost-on-it-now-front-line battle-weary Leasing Agent. Have you been there? If not, it's a life-changing experience absolutely necessary to relate to this industry.

Taking this topic straight down to where the rubber meets the road, I go back to my aforementioned Leasing Agent days in sweltering July Dallas, TX heat where my property had 3 phases, 27 floorplans, 1283 units spread out over 46 acres complete with 9 furnished models strategically located at the farthest edges of the property so we could showcase the community by weaving around on awe-inspiring golf cart tours. Whew.

My Nirvana would have been to eliminate the tire-kickers and only work all day long with the most awesomest prequalified Lease-Leads that I could get into my property. Awesome Leads = awesomer Leases = awesomest Leasing bonuses = new shoes. Sweet.("Awesomest" is a word, my 12 year old uses it constantly.)

Okay...how does this all relate to Mark's initial rant-post? Heck, the conversation string touched nerves and threads through all comments posted: I'm hearing that nobody wants to manage nor pay out-the-nose for another ILS, yes?

Jeepers Creepers...It sounds like ILS has evolved into a 4 letter word with 3 letters. I may carve those letters into my front porch Jack-o'-lantern this year to scare the neighborhood kids away from my Butterfingers!

We gotta have a Lead partner who's "got your back".
Someone who's integrated with just about every management software system under the sun so that recording, tracking and filtering those Leads is automatically done and neatly packaged/summarized for an at-a-glance review OR provides the info for in-depth analysis.

We are all crying out for no nickel and diming...no hidden nor sneaky fees, no contracts - a spot-on Lead generator that has abuse tattooed all over them with a motto like "Use me when you need me. Decide when, where and for how long, and you don't even have to buy me a cigarette." Right?

You're craving a BFF Lead Specialist A-Team who'll work CHEAP - sweating to get that CPLease lower than a snake's under-belly; someone who'll showoff all of the nifty features you've created (and paid a chunk of change for BTW). You know what I'm talking about; the branding and education must-haves - Photos, 3D floorplans, virtual tours, videos, multimedia files, video spokesmodels, Facebook and Twitter integration...yaddah yaddah yaddah.

You're really needing someone who presents YOUR content to YOUR target demographic and channels them back to YOUR site. Someone who develops spiffy "stuff" for you that doesn't claim, "this is OUR content" but instead makes the promise "this is YOUR content" and "we'll help YOU get YOUR message out to YOUR best prospective residents, and guess what...YOU can use YOUR content on YOUR site!" DANG, that would be WAY COOL!

Our industry is Desperately Seeking Susan (sorry, a flashback from those early Madonna days) for a Social Rental Research option geared towards linking apartment seekers that will be their best personal fit...someplace they'll love in a neighborhood with a culture they're not gonna wanna leave. (HELLO RESIDENT RETENTION).

Holy moly - we need that fairy godmother wand-waving-magic that filters out the (dare I say it) "junk traffic" AKA Lead-Spam.

Spreading the Google Juice isn't at all like drinking the Kool-aid. isn't it more like (I may get in trouble for this one, but here goes)...Communion?

And maybe just a little bit of Communion could be good for what ails all of us. I dunno...I'm just thinking... Tamela

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written by Karen Long, October 20, 2009
Tamela scared me a littlesmilies/shocked.gif! She's describing something that would be very useful though. Eric also asked me directly how I feel that an ILS helps with community branding. At this time our website focuses on getting that customer to you. We spend our resources to make that happen. A customer who is wandering through cyber space not even knowing you exist. An ILS helps make them realize you exist. They can click on your community information for more details(ApartmentSearch does this) and presto, you have an e-mail with their questions and interests in your leasing office. At that point it's up to you and your team. Bring them into your office or direct them to your very cool website - wherever you are on the marketing scale. We throw that pitch your way but we still count on you to smack it out of the park!
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written by Laurie Frew, October 20, 2009
When I was a property manager I overheard a leasing consultant ask a prospect where they had found out about us, when they said "internet" she responded with "Was it Rent.com? They give you $100 if you say them". Yes, she was using it as a closing tool. And argued with me later when I tried to explain why we didn't want to feed them Rent.com as the answer.

Eric, you had a question about why the ILS's don't allow links to the property and management websites. Some of them including, Move.com, do link to property and management sites. I would venture to guess that those that don't link don't do so because they understand that once a prospect uses that link to go to the property website, and then that prospect calls from that site they don't get "credit" for generating that lead. Since ILS's are very closely scrutinized by the management companies on the number of calls they generate don't want to "give away" those leads to the management site.
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written by Peggy Abkemeier, October 20, 2009
Rent.com offers a distinct pay-for-performance model in which we only charge the property when we fill their vacant units with renters that use Rent.com to find their apartment.

We realize that there may be some occasions in which a renter who claims via our lease report form that they used our site to find an apartment and moved in is inaccurate, either because the renter was mistaken in their claim, or because they were simply attempting to receive the $100 reward. However, we also know that due to the human aspect of recording the marketing source by the leasing agent in the property management software, or lead tracking software, this information is also not always accurate.

Duplicate guest cards are often created with multiple lead sources and sometimes the source is either interpreted or recorded inaccurately during the sometimes hectic leasing process that can occur at the property level. Leasing agents wear many hats and recording the lead source accurately is understandably not always the top priority of the leasing agent when compared to their other duties.

As a result, inherent in this model, is the need for a partnership between the leasing agent and our support department in which the use of both our data and the property’s data regarding the source the renter used is taken into account. This partnership is spelled out in our terms and conditions with all properties who list on our website.

Rent.com’s goal is to be fair to both our renter and property customers and only invoice properties and pay the $100 reward to the renter when Rent.com truly matches the renter with a property. Occasional disputes, as a result of the required partnership, are expected and our collectors reach out to the leasing agents and marketing directors to resolve these disputes in a timely manner. There are certainly times when we agree with the property’s dispute claim, and after reviewing our data in conjunction with data from the property, we do agree to invalidate and write-off the invoice.

If, however, we see a frequent pattern of disputes and refusal to pay invoices in which we have strong website usage data to support that we were the source of the renter, then we are forced to analyze whether this partnership is working for both the property and Rent.com. When disputes persist, it becomes clear that the property does not feel Rent.com is valuable as a lead source and it is necessary to terminate the property from our website so that our renters can find properties who do agree to partner and pay for renter matches we provide for their properties. We cannot afford to continue sending renter leads to a property who does not believe that we are providing value and filling their vacancies.

We value all of our customers and it is never good when they are unsatisfied with our business model. Before reaching a decision to terminate any property from our site we are very diligent in trying to work through the issues, as we have been in this case. In these situations, there are always multiple attempts over a reasonable period of time to contact a property and seek resolution. After several failed attempts to communicate with a given property, we are forced to make the best business decision, which may be to terminate that property.

If the property does not agree that we are delivering leads that fill their vacancies, and therefore, refuses to pay our invoices, then a termination of that property from our site should be both a mutually acceptable solution and inconsequential to the property’s ability to fill their vacancies. In this case, there was one property in question, within the portfolio that Mark manages, which was terminated after several months of non-payment and several failed attempts from our end to resolve the issue with the on-site property manager.

Lastly, and contrary to one of the comments posted in response to the video, we do believe there are ways to reduce the source disputes between Rent.com and our property customers. We have been exploring ways to use technology to link the data we have regarding the renter’s search process and the tracking and guest card data recorded by a property’s management software and tracking tools. With this type of integration, much of the human error aspect of our current model is replaced by technology data matching. This is a solution that we are actively pursuing with a number of our customers .

Rent.com believes that tracking and analysis of marketing sources is extremely important in allowing a property to truly understand the return on investment of their marketing spend and transparency of this data is welcomed and encouraged by Rent.com

Peggy Abkemeier
President, Rent.com
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written by Mark Juleen, October 20, 2009
Hello Peggy, thank you for taking the time to comment. As I said in a previous comment, my goal has never been to just complain and let this be. I would love to see the model evolve to reduce billing conflicts. Many people I have spoken with (and some that have commented on here) are frustrated with the business model as it is. We see value with Rent.com, but the process must be improved. I suppose I could have just dropped all of my ads and gone away quietly, but I do see potential in the site if things can be improved. The voice I have shared here has obviously resonated with a number of people that would like to see change as well.

I would like to add, our refusal to pay any invoices with the property in question is a result of the frustrations with your tracking model. We feel these were unjust and continually challenged them (including myself at the corp. level). Any reason for non-payment or failure to resolve issues is based off a failure of your model and a disagreement. From the way you phrased the situation it sounds as though we neglected the invoices vs. challenged them. I want to make it clear we have challenged the invoices and not neglected them as your phrasing has suggested.

I appreciate you thoroughly explaining your position and policies, and I look forward to hearing more about the technology advancements that can help your model evolve. I have a scheduled call with your team on Thursday and hope to work together toward improvement of the model.

Sincerely,

Mark Juleen
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written by Mark Juleen, October 20, 2009
Thank you everyone for the comments and thoughts. I'm a firm believer in that there is always a better way. I am vocal with my thoughts, and I appreciate all of you sharing yours. This website and social media in general allow us a great forum to share ideas, frustrations, best practices, and/or just spur conversation. We all learn from one another and I feel it is all in an effort for improvement. While in the end we may agree to disagree on different topics, I believe it is important to share and grow from our mistakes and successes. Sometimes it's not easy, but being a winner rarely is.

Please feel free to keep the conversation alive, but I will bow out at this point until having my discussion with the Rent.com team. I look forward to sharing what comes of that conversation.

Enjoy your week!

Mark
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written by Peggy Abkemeier, October 20, 2009
Thanks Mark- I agree it is definitely more productive to discuss your concerns offline so we can discuss the specific facts of this dispute-hence the meeting on Thursday. I agree that the the termination of the property in your portfolio was the result of our inability to agree on a resolution, rather than a failure of you or your site-management to communicate. That was not the intent of my words and I apologize if that is how you interpreted them. I do disagree however, that the reason for non-payment was based off a failure of our model. This disagreement, however, goes to the root of the dispute and the reason we have scheduled an off-line meeting to discuss.

Thanks much,
Peggy Abkemeier
President, Rent.com
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written by todd katler, October 21, 2009
I am reading a lot about people not liking their ILS’s. Let me let you in on a little secret – you aren’t supposed to like your ILS’s! One of my old mentors and probably the smartest person I know told me long ago, “If you work in advertising in the apartment industry and want to be loved, go buy a dog.” There is not a single property that uses an ILS or other ad source because they want to. Properties use ad sources because they have to - they simply cannot get enough leases without the ad sources (at least for the extreme vast majority of properties).

So the goal here is to objectively evaluate each source and determine where it fits in your marketing mix. Once ranked by volume and cost, you can make decisions about which sources to cut and which to keep. Clearly people are frustrated about the Rent.com model. Both the customers and Rent.com feel what’s happening isn’t fair. Even Tamela is chiming in with all kinds of stuff and I am still trying to figure out her posts (TC – you know I love you, but you need to switch to decaf).

Every model has its strengths and weaknesses. Years ago, all you had was a guest card to use to evaluate your advertising. I think we all know today that this method is severely flawed.

@Mark – Mark, I think your video said you had 6 leases of which 4 you believed were bogus. You may be right, you may be wrong, but what I can tell you is that the truth is not listed on your guest cards. Maybe all 6 are bad? Without a digital method of assigning credit that is as free from human bias as possible, these frustrations will continue and intensify.

There are many data sources you can use to make better decisions. Some are provided by the ad sources themselves. There is a lot available from Swiss-neutral intermediaries. Not using this data is like ordering dinner at a restaurant without looking at the menu and then being upset when someone serves you liver (I hate liver). You have to embrace the far superior methods available today to get to the truth (or at least a whole lot closer to it). If you won’t, then I can hear the hostess now….”Bitter, part of 1, your table is ready.”

-Todd
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written by Tamela Coval, October 21, 2009
Katler, love you, too, HoneyLamb. Karen, sorry to scare you...Halloween is my fave time of year, so I suppose the fright part fits.

Bottom line, we're all looking for Leads that will Lease. And we want to track where the Leads come from. Yes?

Marketing and advertising is no longer as simple as a menu of advertising options.

Traditional advertising plans encouraged tracking the performance of traffic (Lead) sources - you just knew that as a marketing director that on a 200 unit property you needed net 25 leases a month to keep your economic occupancy up above the magical 95% and there was a "secret" formula for getting there. This is what it (conservatively) looked like;
1. 2 print guides ($700 per month each)
2. Newspaper listing ($500 per month)
3. Locators (50% of one month's rent per lease)
4. Bandit signs (printing cost + fines charged by local DOT when you got caught)
5. Resident referrals ($250 each)

Employing these tactics did something to get people in the door. If you had a monster-sized budget or new lease up, you got to buy a billboard as a directional to your property ($2000 per month). Yikes.

The end result was we got traffic in the door from somewhere and we counted on our leasing staff and secret shoppers to give us feedback on how best to close the traffic that walked in.

Marketing media is changed drastically today and Mark's initial post and Stephanie's strong AMEN! were accompanied by Justin's expression of frustration with the whole process.

This dilemma reveals how we're struggling as an industry to pull the curtain back in a web savvy way and see just how and where those very targeted, very qualifed Leads that will turn into Leases originate.

The possible sources are many; ILS, Facebook, Twitter, your company site, your own SEO efforts, print guides, print guides plus or vs. their own web site, resident referrals, subscription models, pay per lead models, pay per lease models, newspapers, resident referrals, drive by, billboard directionals, radio...did I leave any out? Heavens to betsy, there's a bunch.

Laurie and Eric questioned the branding effectiveness warranted or not by the ILS. Tara talked about the incentive carrot in tracking and closing leases; Karen testified that the ILS serve the purpose of bringing informed apartment shoppers into the office but accepted the responsibility as the owner/manager of closing the Lease. The observations and opinions are diverse, but all related. And then...Todd and I railed on the Guest Card...are they Fact or Fiction?

Do the guest cards really serve as THE best source of information for making decisions on lead generator effectiveness? Both of our companies review all leads that come through our systems and we hear the actual conversations that are conducted on the phone by the front line leasing teams and the informed apartment shoppers.

We hear the Good, the Bad and the Ugly.

Suggestion: Listen to a few calls from your friendly call center, shopping report service or ILS partner who records and reviews those calls. Transparency in this definition will show that ad partner decision making is flawed because as a general statement -there are exceptions- but as a general statement, we do a poor job of listening to, qualifying and working the leads that the ILS and other ad source partners bring to the apartment communities.

The good news is...we can fix that. One leasing agent, one property at a time, we can fix that. The other good news is that the ILS partners want to help. Chris Vargas and his Team at Rent.com are upright downright classy folks. They want to listen, learn and make things better. Heck, we all do. Todd's Level One Group has great tools that get you front and center to what's happening in conversations with renters. Shameless plug here, but RentWiki reviews every lead. We listen to every conversation and filter out the timewasters that distract the leasing process. The Apartment Allstars haven't joined in on this conversation, but they're here in spirit, they educate and enlighten so we can all be better AND effective. Heck the forum that Brent's MultiFamilyInsiders.com blog affords lets us all air problems and develop solutions.

The tools to make us all stellar performers are here. We just need to start the dialogue to share and use them.

We can do that.
Now I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy - peace, love and groovy. Must be some of that Marvin Gaye music I'm channeling. Tsmilies/cool.gif
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written by Jackie Koehler, October 22, 2009
Like most ILSs. Ours, 4 Walls, offers an email form where the propect can contact the property directly. I've seen many such emails where in the comments section the prospect types "I found you on rent.com".

We usually laugh, but this is a distinct example of residents getting into the habit of mentioning rent.com no matter where they found the property.

Can't hurt the resident, there is a change that will earn them some cash.

Most prospects use multiple sources in their decision making process. The problem is apartment communities try to source one source when their are many, and how does a pay per lease model fit into this assumption?

-Jackie

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written by Laurie Frew, October 22, 2009
Jackie, you just hit the nail on the head! Can you imagine going to buy a car, walking on to a car lot, say Honda, and hearing the salesperson ask "So, how did you find out about us?"
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written by Steve Lefkovits, October 27, 2009
Everyone's interest in sophisticated lead tracking is going to spawn a session at the 2010 AIM Conference (April 28-30, 2010 at the Hyatt in Huntington Beach, CA.) If anyone has contacts or ideas about presenters who could address the realities of how consumers search and use multiple forms of media for information, and/or have thought through how to give "credit" to all of the advertising venues that contribute to a buying decision, please let me know. I'd love to structure a discussion or two around this topic.

I'm particularly sensitive to it because I bought a car today after using Edmunds, the NY Times, Toyota.com and a few other sites for information. My co-worker bought one last week and raved about it so there was a referral. And then I went and bought the car where I knew the sales manager. Who should get the credit for the sale? How do we even begin to think about this?

If anyone has gotten beyond the questions stage and has access to experts, please email me at steve [at] jtimedia.com. Thanks very much!
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written by Mark Juleen, October 27, 2009
Again, thanks for stopping by everyone. I've put together my follow-up piece that you can view here http://www.multifamilyinsiders...-Post.html
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written by Mark Juleen, October 27, 2009
@Steve I think it's definitely an interesting topic. Thanks for stopping by. Let's chat soon.
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written by Kim Stair, November 11, 2009
I have actually heard clients say that they registered with rent.com, just for the cash, even if they had been to several other sites prior and rent.com had nothing to do with their decision. There really is no way to verify if any particular site influenced a rental. Is how they FOUND you really relevant to what makes their decision? Realistically, can we even begin to think that the information on the web MAKES a decision for anyone? Providing details that can be found in mulitiple locations does not make rent.com or any other site the REASON someone rents with you. They either HAVE to call or visit for more necessary details, and once you get past style, size, type and price, concessions etc ? the webiste that gave them your phone number? is irrelevant to closing the deal.
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written by Karen Long, November 11, 2009
Kim, that experience where customers say they registered with rent.com for the $$ can be frustrating and I'm sure has happened but it's not the norm. The web is a convenient tool used by apartment hunters to decide what communities meet their basic apartment needs. I'll disclose right here that I am with CORT and we have an ILS (ApartmentSearch by CORT) as part of what we bring to our property management partners so you know my background. Apartment hunters have embraced the internet and internet shoppers are notoriously fickle - they will research through various websites to make sure they have the best selection to choose from. ILS's have no choice but to motivate customers to remember they saw the community info on their site. If they didn't, the customer would never even pay attention to where they saw the property data and you would have no clue what site is drawing the customers' attention to you. And knowing what works is critical in a marketing plan, right?

So, back to our apartment shopper. From that preliminary search, a few communities are selected, the prospective resident then contacts those properties and the ball is then in the leasing teams court. Internet listing services are simply marketing for you, getting your story out there to the most people possible. If you aren't on those websites (that take a lot of financial resources to build and to make easy to find in the chaos of cyberspace) you may not even be in the running for that customer.

Ultimately, internet marketing is just one part of your marketing plan to keep customers coming your way. Even though it seems like paying an ILS is irrelevant to closing the deal, the ILS launches the process for a huge number of today's renters. There's value in being where they are looking for their next apartment.
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written by Laurie Frew, November 11, 2009
Great post Karen!
It's marketing and it's how prospects know who you are, where you are and what you have to offer and if it fits what they are looking for. It is always up to the leasing folks to close the deal and lease the apartment. So much pressure is put on an ILS to not only come up on the first page of Google - and there is a lot of competition for that space and it is, like you said, an expensive process, provide the lead, somehow make sure the prospect is "qualified" and then figure out how to make the prospect mention the ILS name when they contact the property. Rent.com gives the prospect $100 to do so. They essentially pay the prospect to be their partner. The prospect used more than one source but mentioned Rent.com as the source and got paid. Quite brilliant of Rent.com actually.
I recently moved to Northern CA from Southern CA and without the interent and the various ILS's I looked at I would not have been able to find the great apartment I did in one weekend. And yes, I saw the community on more than one site. And no didn't say "Rent.com".
smilies/wink.gif
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written by Jason Leary, November 23, 2009
A couple ideas to consider….Have you thought about using Property Solutions or Vaultware to parse your guest cards from the ILS Listing directly? This ensures you are capturing all traffic and making the most of your investment. Also, in regards to a prospect saying they heard about the property on “the internet”, why not train the Leasing Rep to drill down further to uncover the source? After all, sales is simply questions.

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