Topic: Maintenance/ Vendors Painting

I recently used a maintenance man to do all of my painting during move outs (with only 45 units I didn't need more then one person). However, he is no longer with us; and I am looking for a new painter. What do you ask painters? Do you give them a painters test or quiz? I would love some insight and help!

There are a few things that I would ask. But first I hope you are placing a solicitation out there for bids. You can have what is called a statement of Work (SOW) and you can also ask them if they have one that is generic. Here are some items that you may want to ask:

1. How long have they been painting?
2. References of their last 5 jobs?
3. Are they bonded?
4. Give examples of all floor plans with measurements:
a. How much for a full paint?
b. How much for a partial paint?
c. How much for patch work
d. How much for a group of apartments?
e. How much for occupied apartments? note: requirements move furniture, cover furniture?
f. What is the turnaround time once they get keys to vacant quarters?
g. Do they clean up after their painting by removing all items from the premises?
5. How much to remove old paint?
6. How much do you charge when you provide the paint?
7. How much do you charge if we provide the paint?
8. How much for accent colors with trim?
9. Do you have quality control?
10. Do you have a guarantee for your workmanship and if so for how long?

The above list will give you a foundation to get you started. If you have questions on any specific points let me know.

Do you give them some sort of a painters test?

No, through the questions that you ask you pretty much weedout the bad ones. Be sure that there are references and I put it at 5 because it is harder to come up with 5 and if they can it points toward someone who is out there making it happen, but you want to ensure you contact these references to findout how satified they were with the work.

You may also want to check with your local Chamber of Commerce for some references as well.

I am a very direct person and before I would accept someone's bid they must provide their proof of worker's Comp Imsurance and their Certificate of Liability Insurance, along with their detailed scope of work or spec sheet. I always ask for their references and photos of past work, and like, Nate, I want more than a couple. It is usually important to me know whether or not the Vendor is flexible with pricing or are they going to charge me for every little thing: changing from flat to semi gloss, painting ceilings, using more than one coat of paint, cost of accent walls, painting trim, etc. I don't want surprises and I will not re-negotiate something in the middle of the job (unless there is no other way around it. I dislike having to utilize change orders!)

Then, I always ask them to paint a unit for me for free. I want to see if they walk the walk and not just talk the talk. 99% of the time, a painting contractor who wants the work and a long term association with my company will paint a unit at no charge. I always supply the paint because I need quality control and I need to ensure that every unit is custom painted in the same way.

I was in the same spot and asked my local REIC for referrals and got one. He simply gets $20 per hour though he's open to bidding when needed. He's smart, fast, thorough, and ... (this is wonderful) doesn't innundate me with questions. In short, he's "smarter than me at what he does." I could possibly do better allowing my handyman to practice and get up to speed, but I'm not interested in getting the absolute best deal, I'm more interested in great service, low hassle, decent price. I'll pay a little extra for the "hassle minimization" factor.

The management company should be the one to generate a scope of work and the insurance should be faxed and mailed to you by the insurance company. A contractor cannot legally provide proof of their insurance.

Just my two cents but I wouldn't ask a contractor to provide a service for free any more than I'd ask a mechanic to make a repair for free or ask a potential employee to work for a day for free.

Far too often I have seen too many people on site call a contractor and say they are looking for a painter, get a unit painted for free, and have no intention of ever calling them again even when the work is excellent. Contractors have to deal with that way too often and it ultimate affects their bottom line which will ultimately affect yours.

Pay them for the unit and if it isn't up to your standards communicate what you want and have them make the corrections or get a different painter.

While I understand that usually the Management Company provides the rules on vendor selection and sets up the bid process, for those who manage smaller communities, this may not be a possibility. For someone with 45 units, this person may BE the company. :) When the economy recently went into a downward spiral, I know there were a huge number of layoffs. It seemed, for me anyway, everyone and his brother, uncle, cousin and grandmother came out or contacted apartment communities to get some work. I heard a lot of, "Well, before I worked at the GM Plant, I used to build fences with my father." Or, "Since I got laid off I've been drywalling friends' basements and I can lay tile, etc." Or, "Yes, I painted my house and then I went over to my friend's house and painted his."

It seemed easier to make sure each person who wanted to become a Vendor for me understood he would need liability insurance, workers comp insurance, tools, skills and that they would be provided with a 1099 and would not be an "employee." I do ask them for their scope of work once we have looked at floor plans and actually toured the unit(s). I found that so many of these people had no idea how to go about getting work in a professional way so I helped them iron out the spec sheets. I also very soon realized that a great many people were inundating me in order to satisfy the requirement of the Unemployment Office to "look for work."

Generally, any contractor who walks in and tells you he can put on a new roof (yeah - we had hail damage last year. Who didn't?) and hands me a cerificate of liability insurance probably does NOT STILL have valid insurance, so I have never accepted anyone's copy of that. I just want them to know that when they turn in my bid pack, insurance is required. Thanks for the information regarding this issue, Mark!

When the Recession hit, some areas of the country were hit extremely hard!!!! I think President Obama visited this state at least 3 times when he was campaigning. Property Maintenance is an almost recession-proof industry. But not every one who has painted can actually qualify as a professional Painter. With that being said, for someone who perhaps did used to paint before working for twenty years at the local car plant, I do not see anything wrong with asking him/her for a complimentary example of his/her skillset. I did that early on when I was getting into the design business. I would decorate a room for someone and include that successful design in my portfolio. And, yes, I have asked my mechanic to do something for free. I have been with the same repair shop for years and I have no problem pulling in to his shop with windshield wiper blades and asking him to install them. And he does it with a smile. I am from an itty bitty small town and I grew up with the barter system, so to speak.

I think it was Thomas Jefferson who said, "Every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle." I would not take advantage of anyone. I want to build a lasting relationship with my Vendors. It has worked for me and I have a great cleaning company, carpet cleaning service and carpet stain removal company that all started out providing a "free" service that has now paid handsomly for the both of us for many years. Treating people with respect is a defining principle.

If a contractor is asked to do something for free and they cannot do this because they have been mistreated before, then there is nothing wrong with saying they are willing to paint a unit for whatever you are paying your current provider. I have seem too many contractors do a job half a#@ and NOT fix the problems and demand payment - and that is not worth my time.

Mindy,
Thanks for repyling and I understand what you mean and your position completely. We all have differences in our opinions and experiences, no doubt. That is what makes these forums so helpful. I wish you great success in all you do. Take good care and I'll see you somewhere on the forum!

I can offer you some insight from a contractors point of view. We do projects all over the US for multi-housing owners, managers, developers and investors. We are well versed in what to look for and what to ask and what requirement to have for your vendors. If you would like you can email me at This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it. and I will be more than happy to help you out with this and hopefully save you some, time, money and heartache. Let me know if I can help!

Mindy,

I can appreciate your comments here, I am in fact a contractor in the multi-housing industry. We perform a multitude of different scopes for our clients. We have yet to have someone ask us to do something for free in efforts to secure work and a long term relationship, however I do feel very strongly that any contractor worth his license would give you a significant discount on the first smaller project like repainting a unit without fear of being beaten up on their price later. We do this for all our clients and even throw in extras like unit painting when we are doing larger projects for them. We do of course keep it to a minimum, but we also strive for customer satisfaction. I believe in the "give a little" method. A contractor that is getting paid well should ALWAYS be willing to give a little when a customer is in a pinch and do a quality job while there at it. You are correct in saying the since the recession hit "everyone is a contractor", as we are based out of Michigan and the economy here is very bad still. There is a huge difference in a company that knows what their doing and company that's just "faking it".

What we typically deal with is pre-negotiated pricing for painting units and turns. This seems to be the best method we have come across, you will still receive 3 or 4 bids for the painting, but make sure its broken down by unit types and unit scopes for full paint, painting just walls, and so on. Then with an average you can negotiate the pricing with 2 of the painters you liked the best and with their final pricing select the one you like the best. We rarely provide the paint as most customers are like yourself and want to supply the paint to make sure its exactly what they want.

The insurance is a whole different animal. We never hand over our insurance in person (not smart for the owners to accept it this way either), we always have the insurance agent fax it over so the owner knows it is still current and it would even wiser to follow up with the insurance company when you receive their fax to make sure the policy is still in place. I have had subcontractors try and have their buddies at their agents office fax me a fake/expired ACCORD doc(which looked to be on the up and up), that turned out to be a bad policy. When the vendor fills out the W-9, they should realize they will be a 1099 contractor. I do however realize that there is some contractors out there that will try anything and everything to pull the wool over your eyes, this is what gives the rest of us legitimate contractors a bad name.

Mutual respect and integrity are the key elements for a good relationship between clients and contractors, without both someone will definitely get burned (speaking from past experience).

If I can give any kind of insight, please feel fee to contact me and ask, as I hate it when bad contractors make the rest of us look bad!

i think that is to much b.s
be more human and fear, you ask for to much sheap people that want something for nothing

I am a professional painter, license by the state of new jersey....any questions you may need to ask please sent me an email

Ok, since you’re a “very direct person” you won’t mind me being very direct. As a contractor, I'm not even sure where to start on this one. Ok, I'll start here - Asking for free work is rude and unprofessional - period! You have the budget to paint the unit so spend it and stop being shady. Doing free work implies desperation - plain and simple. What would you say if a potential resident came in your office and said "let me live here for a month and even if I like the place I *won't* pay you for the month but if I don't like it I'll leave and never come back". Think about that for minute. When I was young and green in this business I fell for that free apartment trick twice. Both times, the managers said "yes, the work looks great - your team did an awesome job - we'll call you if we need you" only to continue using "their guy" that they just wanted to make nervous but that they'd always intended to keep anyway. It's such a scam.
“ are they going to charge me for every little thing: changing from flat to semi gloss, painting ceilings, using more than one coat of paint, cost of accent walls, painting trim, etc.”
In what world do you feel your contractor should assume the liability for any possible additional scope of work you might throw at him without asking you to compensate him for it? Are you serious? You’re saying you think he should double coat an apartment for the same price as a single coat? Should he go to the store and buy accent paint colors and paint walls here and there free? Should he agree that if a resident trashes the place, busts holes in the walls and allows their kids to run up and down the halls while holding magic markers on the walls that he should just smile and send his normal base price invoice to you? Try going in a restaurant and saying I want a salad, appetizer, main course, desert and drinks for the cost of a single entrée. That is *exactly* the same thing you want from your contractor and it’s completely idiotic. You should be ashamed of yourself Mindy. You sound like a bully and a fool.

I don't think I have ever been personally attacked before here in the Multifamily Insiders forum. Since this original discussion occurred more than three years ago, at least the economy has improved for most people, including those in our industry. All vendors should protect themselves with a written and executed contract. If a problem arises, it is up to the Vendor and Company to work out the issue. However, painting an apartment is not likely to result in many unexpected issues. Your contract covers who pays for, supplies, and orders paint and materials, etc. At least in my experience, I have never encountered it, and I have worked with the same contractors all the time for many, many years. I protect the company and my Vendors with written contracts and it keeps on working.

By the way, many apartment communities who experience occupancy issues do offer residents a special of living in an apartment in the community for free, but that is specified in a written contract called a lease. Some apartment communities also offer a "Move In Guarantee" or warranty of sorts where someone moves in, is not satisfied for whatever reason, they can move with no serious damage to credit, etc.

It sounds like you were treated unfairly when you first started out and I am sorry to hear that. No one deserves to be taken advantage of, but not everyone in the world is like that. I would venture to say that experience taught you not to trust people but it probably taught you to get a contract too. Not everyone who asks for a free demo of your product or service is a bully or an idiot. Finding great contractors who take pride in their work, who do the work at a fair price, and have integrity and show up to finish the job are worth the price they charge and we pay.

I remember, too, the bad times painters and everyone else were going through. My brother-in-law works for a huge painting company and he would send me guys "starving" for work. Several of them offered to paint the upstairs or a room for free if I would contact them to do all of my work.

I had several show up and just turn and walk out when I told them what I was paying for a full-paint ($300 for 1000 sq.ft) base charge. A lot of these guys wouldn't do it for less than $600.

Now that economy here is much better, affordable painters are taken by larger communities with bigger business than my small properties. It's tough to find a good painting company. So, when I find one, I stick with them. If I have a problem with their work, I tell them and they fix it.

I have been using the same company for 8 years. I tried a few others that were cheaper and they were awful! Still the same price, too!

If the painting contractor is working by themselves, (no other helpers or employees of their own), then the contractor can be exempt from having workers comp insurance. You would need to ask them for a "workers comp exemption affidavit". At least that's the case in the state of Wisconsin.
You can collect a copy of the contractor's liability insurance certificate and validate it by calling the insurance company listed on the certificate and read them the policy number to see if it's still valid. That's free to do.

I'm not aware of any law that states that a contractor can't give their customers their insurance information to a customer. As a previous contractor, we handed our liability and workers comp insurance certificate to our customers all the time (upon request). Just because a contractor gives you their insurance certificate doesn't necessarily mean that they "don't have insurance." How else are you to collect any type of information regarding their insurance? It takes a couple minutes to dial up the insurance company listed on their certificate and ask for validation. If it's invalid, don't call them back, just move on to the next one.

As far as asking the painter to do a unit for free...I would not recommend that at all. Nobody worth their salt works for free. Most contractors would laugh at you and find someone else to work for. The ones that are more than willing to paint a unit for free might be desperate for work, and you've got to ask yourself why they're desperate. The good contractors know that they can establish a long association with any multi-family complex while being paid on their first job. They also shy away from customers who want something for nothing...they see it as "future issues with getting paid" and don't want to work for people like that.

Asking for references is something of the past in my opinion. You know how many contractors will get a friend to act as a reference? Unless you physically go out to the last 5 apartments they did and ask the property manager who did it....then you're digging for nothing most times. What about pictures of past projects? Anyone can find or take pictures of work they didn't perform. Asking how long they've been painting is another unreliable way to get info. If you asked any young painter, he'd say he's been doing it for YEARS and years, but really just started a year ago.

So how do you really know if they're legit? Validate their insurance (liability and workers comp) Test them out on 1-2 units. Pay them for the work. Take notes of their punctuality, their attire, their vehicles, their tools, how they communicate with you, how they act around your tenants, how long it takes them to do one unit, how well they clean up, how they deliver correspondences (estimates, invoices, change orders), and finally take a look at the paint job they did after they leave.

Did they show up on time? Did they look professional (for painters)? Were their vehicles decent looking (rusted out jalopy? cash flow issues...)? Do they speak professionally with you and others around them? How well did they clean up? How do the paint lines look (accent walls, taping around trim etc)? You'll be able to tell everything about the contractor by putting them through this type of test. Contractors that are worth their salt and walk the walk don't need to beg for work OR jump through a lot of hoops to get work.

A note about change orders. Nobody likes surprises during a remodeling project, but the truth is, somethings always come up that was unforeseen during initial inspection. When a roofer gives you a change order to replace decking boards (which makes your contract go up), that's typical because nobody could see the condition of the boards until it was torn off. Sure you could walk across the roof and feel for weak boards, but there will be others you missed. Change orders are an excellent way to tell that a contractor is playing by the rules. On the other hand, if you have a contractor that just adds it to the bill at the end...they legally can't do that believe it or not. Minor change orders don't cost that much especially during an apartment turn. But if you're getting change orders that double in price for labor or something like that, then you can always decline the change order and fire the contractor if they don't want to finish. Some bad contractors use that as a tactic to get work! Bid low, then change order high or else!

I own apartment in the new Jersery area there a company that I use call E.G And C Building Service's that give good deals on move in / move out cleaning plus painting if you Google there phone number 908-720-6611 you can find more of there service like trash out

Call other apartment communities in the area and see who they use? It's not top secret info and I know if I find a good vendor I try to get them as much work as possible to ensure they stay in business.

For the SOW, reach out to your Paint Supplier sales rep and ask for their assistance in writing it, I know Sherwin Williams will help without question. I had them help me with a SOW on a major renovation project I was working on, they toured the property and wrote a Scope for me. I rewrote it to include my expectations but the meat of the Technical side was done by my sales rep.

I wrote my SOW for our turns base off of my experiences in the past and what my expectations were for our turns. I was lucky enough to have relationships with several painting vendors and solicit them for bids but for the vendors I don't have relationships with I rely on Google and the 30 day out in my contracts.

Hey I'm a really good painter if you need me let me know

How many years, Are you doing this as a side job, I have a number of a good start up business that is looking to expand only one person painter at this time. 732-997-6813

Sir Me Avinash kumar , Painting contracter, If it is possible aly re-painting or painting work, lowest prise with good qoality.

I have 15 years experience Painting. All with great comments. Willing to talk more. (859)202-5845

I have a lot of experience in painting and Maintence I’m very interested in showing and proving to you what I can do. I have owned my own siding business and have work with a few Maintence crews. Helped out with remodeling rental property. I can give references. (217)-652-2685

I am very thankful that their are people that have the depth and consideration to do business your way. Rather than to leave THE PAINTER HIGH AND DRY' if the painter does'nt paint and pass her test to do a free room or an entire apartment they exact way that She wants. She could default on their agreement for any reason or none at all.... What a way to scam and exploit people for free labor.....

is this work in nyc area ?